May 29, 2013

• Does Baptism “Save” us?

  The following is a conversation from Facebook covering the topics of Baptismal Regeneration, the Trinity, Baptism in Jesus name or in the name of the Father, the Son & the Holy Spirit and a few other matters.  I thought the information was worth reposting here while everyone is waiting for me to finish “Judgment Comes, Part 5″… yeah, I’m still working on that one.  

  For the sake and privacy of those involved, names have been truncated.

  Gary -  When are we saved and our sins remitted?

  
  

  Mark - When we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit, which causes us to repent of our sin, believe that Jesus died for our sin, receive Jesus as our personal Savior. Some of my brethren also believe water baptism is part of the necessary equation. I tend to believe water baptism is an obedient act submitted to by believers rather than a necessary part of their salvation.
  

  
  Gary - Thank you. Have you read where Peter told them to be water baptized when they asked him how to be saved in ACTS 1 and 2?
  
  Have you read all the water baptism verse in the NT?
  
  What about when Jesus said, “Except ye be water baptized ye cannot enter heaven?”

  
  

  Mark - If you believe in baptismal re- generation, so be it. Many of my friends believe that Jesus taught that.
  

  Wayne - (NOTE THIS: my initial response was not directly to the matter of Baptism or regeneration.  Therefore it doesn’t fully make sense to the overall conversation, only to Mark’s first reply.)  Mark — a good response to the above question is to turn to Titus 2:11-12. For the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation for all who believe. It TEACHES US TO SAY NO to ungodliness and worldly passions and to live self-controlled, upright & godly lives in this present age.
  
  a person who has not the Spirit of God can’t ever say no to their sins / passions / lusts / carnal desires…. because they lack the ability to do so. The only thing they can do is exchange one sin for another… such as giving up drinking while submitting to pride.
  
  Make sense?

  Gary -  We all wonder why with the bible and eternal life beings the most important thing in life, why folks don’t read and question every verse?
  
  I visit all religions to share, ask questions and learn. If the bible said in ACTS that all water baptisms were in the (singular) name of Jesus, then I would ask a dozen peeps who water baptized that way: how and why.
  
  Is it true everyone on FB wants to teach but none has any questions nor will they visit other religions nor do they really want to learn?
  
  When I ask folks who had the KEY and what 3 things did he say, they have no idea. They do not have a clue to what the KJV of 1611 clearly says.

  
  

  Wayne - Gary — when you’ve found the truth, everything else pales in comparison.
  
  I used to work for a bank. Spent 4 years there. One thing they taught us very profoundly…. sticks with me to this day, 30+ years later. How to spot a counterfeit.
  
  They did so not by teaching us the counterfeits — they taught us to spot counterfeits by drilling the real deal into us so thoroughly that every time a counterfeit showed up, it stuck out like a sore thumb.
  
  Jesus does the same thing — get to know the real deal, and all those other FALSE religions will all make sense…. as it is, they all preach the same thing…. “Do enough good deeds and you’ve earned your way into Heaven.” Jesus said the opposite … your good deeds account for nothing, squat, zip, zilch, nada. They get you nowhere.
  
  1000 religions all preaching the same message…. ONE religion preaching against the flow… which makes sense? I’d lay you strong odds that all the others are counterfeits of the real —- because you never counterfeit something cheap. Whens the last time you saw a counterfeit penny?

  Gary - @Wayne Shuman;
  
  I only work well with bible verses. Thank you.
  
  Now, please if you may, explain the Water Baptism verses I posted from ACTS. If you cannot explain them, try to post a bank statement.

  Wayne - Peter has a crowd of roughly 30,000 – 75,000 people he’s preaching to. He needs to make it absolutely clear that those who are putting their faith in Jesus are making a public commitment and not merely lip service…. that they are honestly making their faith in Christ as Messiah (RE: the verses just before where you keep pointing to… bringing it all back to faith and not some sacrament…) a firm commitment. Thus for Peter to make the statement:
  
  
  

  Repent (which I note that you keep omitting… it’s just as equally important my friend) and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins.
  

  
  is not some formulaic plan of salvation, but merely a call to Israel to embrace their messiah, whom they had just previously crucified.
  
  The indication here is not HOW these things save you (re: Repentance or baptism) but that you are following along in obedience to what Christ had already laid out…. Repentance, Faith & obedience.
  
  As for Chapter 1…. Jesus own words were in respect to John’s baptism, not the Church’s, and how we are to expect a greater baptism to follow… namely the indwelling Holy Spirit. Again… this isn’t a matter of salvation (hmmmm, seems to me that the Apostles would have already BEEN saved at this point… you think????) nor of staking out a formulaic plan on how men ought to be redeemed. Merely that we are immersed in a greater baptism by our adoption into the family of God.
  
  Now here’s a thought for you… the King James writers…. missed the mark. They created the word “Baptism” from the Latin word for “Immersion.” They did the same thing with the Latin word Diaconis which they transliterated into “Deacon”. The word simply means “Servant”….. but as to “baptize” — the King James writers took a Latin word, dropped the context and merely transliterated it into English in order to not take sides on the whole sprinkle or full immersion controversy raging at the time. By creating “Baptize” they skirted the issue with neutrality.
  
  It pays to do your history homework sometimes….

  Gary - Thank you.
  
  If you search the bible, you will find where they water baptized under the water.
  
  They “Came Up” out of the water.
  
  I noticed you skipped the 3 verses in ACTS that I posted.
  
  You would not have shipped those on purpose because you follow the Pope’s Water Baptism of 325 AD at the Council Of Nicea when he started his 3 titles of, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, now would you?
  
  You follow the Apostles in ACTS in the (Singular) name of Jesus or you follow the Pope’s 3 titles of that one name?

  It $ pays to do your history and bible homework sometimes and find the truth instead of what others tell you
  

  Wayne - Seems to me that the book of Matthew predates the pope… or at least the last time I checked it did…

  Gary - You still flatly refuse to explain the ACTS baptism verses
  
  

  Wayne - Only so far as they likewise support the rest of Scripture that God wrote. To be blunt, I see no disparity
  

  Gary - That is OK. Most folks who follow the Pope cannot explain them nor do they have a desire to learn nor have they bowed in tears and asked GOD to reveal HIS truth

  
  

  Wayne - Father, Son, & Holy Spirit. If Jesus said so… well… it’s clear enough for me.

  Gary - Thank you.
  
  Have you thought these 3 were titles of a Name?
  
  A “proper name” or “title” or “office.”
  
  More explanation: Matthew 28:19;
  
  “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the ( Singular ) name of the Father which is Jesus, and of the Son which is Jesus, and of the Holy Ghost which is Jesus.” (Singular)

  
  

  Wayne - I reject Modalism, just as much as I reject Oneness Pentacostals. If you can’t deal with the fact that the Trinity exists, then I would honestly question your salvation…
  
  look at your finger… it is created in the image of God.
  
  Your finger is flesh,
  Your finger is blood,
  Your finger is bone.
  
  You cannot remove a single component and have a working finger. Just like the God who created you.
  
  Jesus is God, but he is not the father.
  
  Just like the flesh of my finger is not blood. Both work in total unison…. but both are utterly distinct from one another.
  
  Father, Son, Holy Spirit…. three… in one harmony.
  
  Clear enough for you?

  Mark - I love both of you brothers & I believe this discussion is very profitable. PLEASE keep it going as time permits. Most who will read this exchange haven’t heard most of these arguments before.

  I recently met a wonderful brother & his wife. He rambled on a bit about having been Baptized again recently in the name of Jesus. Years before, he had been Baptized in the name of the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit. He seemed genuinely convinced by someone in the name of the F,S, & HS was not sufficient. My response was, well, I think you’ve pretty well got it covered @ this point & added a big smile.This all happened while we were witnessing to a non-Christian. I do know that Romans & I John give assurance to believers who may not have been water Baptized @ all. That us good enough for me. In addition, I have been submersed after conversion, so Biblically speaking, I’m well covered. I must add, the doctrine of the Trinity is a pillar of Biblical Christianity. There is no getting around that one. Blessings!

  Gary - Thank you all.
  
  I will donate Cajun food and Cajun Shrimp boats if anyone can post 2 verses;
  
  1) where the baptizer spoke over the person in going under the water the words, “Father, Son, Holy Spirit”
  
  and the 2nd) where the baptizer spoke over the person in going under the water the words the name (Singular) of Jesus.

  
  

  Wayne - This ought to add some fuel to the fire…..
  
  

  
  
  

  Mark - Jesus only needs to say it once Gary, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” – Matthew 28:19 NIV. Besides, it wouldn’t make sense if you grabbed a hold of the account in Acts, marched out to the creek and baptized people in Jesus name when He said, do it the way I told you. He also said, go make disciples, so to run out and make converts wouldn’t make sense either. Lastly, the Cajun food, and Cajun fishing boats belong to Jesus. I’m assuming your offer was set up on a tier system. Give one Scripture – win the food. Give two – win the boats.

  Gary - I am not able to find any contradictions in the KJV. It all is congruent for those who read it with an open mind.
  
  But, now when I was younger and Catholic, I read Matt 28:19 as the Formula instead of the Commission. I read the 3 titles as 3 names instead of 3 titles of the only 1 name of Jesus.
  
  That is why I visit another religion every month. To share, and learn and ask questions and grow.

  
  Gary - You guys are saying in a round about way, y’ll all cannot find any verse where they were water baptized in the 3 titles?
  

  Gary - Ya’ll all also were not able to find any verse in ACTS where they were water baptized in the name of Jesus?

  Mark - if you don’t trust in the Triune God revealed in Scripture, and disregard clear teaching of our Lord as recorded by Matthew, you might be a redneck, a cult member, confused or just another blinded reprobate. At this point, I can’t tell which. KJV only folks might not even grasp whats going on here I’m afraid. Either way, keep passing the good news around, that Jesus died for sinners like you and me, and all who repent of their sin and come to Him, He will not turn them away.

  Gary - Thank you Mark;
  
  I guess I am different. If I was not able to understand or explain every verse in ACTS, I would be attending other religions with an open mind seeking to learn. I love to learn.

  
  

  Wayne - Gary — If God wrote scripture, then you can expect a unified message throughout, start to finish. It might be progressive revelation (Moses gave us the Law, but Law was only put into place to show us how far we had fallen and therefore usher in a new covenant of Grace… progressive revelation….) or it might be stated plainly or bluntly (The just shall live by faith — likewise — He who hides his sin shall not prosper, but whoever confesses & forsakes their sin shall obtain life.) (Habakkuk 2:4 and Proverbs 28:13) either way you’ll find a consistency to the message… because of one over all author.
  
  Now…. that all said…. let’s go back …. way back… all the way back to your first comment.
  
  When are we saved and our sins forgiven?
  
  You are pulling from the Book of Acts with the aim of proving what’s known as “Baptismal Regeneration”.  Or plainly put, that it is Baptism that brings about our salvation and the forgiveness of our sins.  This is commonly deduced from 1 Peter 3:21 and again from Acts 22:16 which says
  
  (using King James for just a moment …)
  
  
  

  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
  

  
  Which seems to imply that the washing away of sins occurs from being baptized.
  
  But let’s look at the rendering of this verse in another version… (I do prefer the New Living Translation personally… esp. since I am a missionary teaching the Scriptures to people who cannot comprehend neither Greek, Hebrew, nor King James English.)
  
  
  

  What are you waiting for? Get up and be baptized. Have your sins washed away by calling on the name of the Lord.
  

  
  One little preposition changes everything. Our sins are washed away NOT BY BAPTISM…. but — BY — calling upon the Lord (by Faith)…. such as the consistent message is throughout all of scripture. This is because in the Greek …. punctuation and often even prepositions… are left up to the reader to UNDERSTAND…. and not everyone always does. This is one reason so many “translations” have proliferated over the years as we try to better grasp what was meant… and likewise to compare what we have from the earliest manuscripts to what’s being put forth.
  
  But let’s take this from another point…. You keep pointing to the book of Acts.
  
  Acts mentions “Baptize” (Greek word, Baptizo or Baptizomai) 24 times in the King James version. Several instances run concurrently (re: all at the same time in the same passage) —- Acts 2:38 & 41. Acts 8:12, 13, 16. Acts 10:37, 47-48. Acts 19:3, 4, 5 (which incredibly uses the word 5 times in only 3 verses). Thus 15 instances of the word actually break down to only 4 real life situations — meaning only 13 real uses of the word “Baptize” in 13 specific occasions.
  
  What’s even more interesting is that 10 full times the word is used NOT…. N-O-T …. regarding the churches baptism …. but of John the Baptists’ !!!! This means that really, only about 9 instances in the book of Acts are pointed to as regarding baptism in direct correlation with the Church. All the rest refer back to John’s calling the people to what…. Baptism? No…. John was calling the people to “Repent”! (Luke 3:3; Acts 13:24)
  
  Acts likewise mentions Repent (Greek word, Metanoia) on 10 separate occasions. Interestingly enough… 10 independent instances, not one concurrent use of the word alongside itself. Also interestingly enough… side by side with Baptize in Acts 2, 8, 11 & 19. So nearly 40% of it’s usage is side by side with the word “Baptize.”….. but there’s a key passage (even in the King James…) that you seem to be ignoring… and this only from the Book of Acts.
  
  Here’s the verse… for your benefit, from the King James.
  
  
  

  When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. (Acts 11:18)
  

  
  God granted the Gentiles…. repentance unto …. L-I-F-E. Repentance, if you clearly understand this verse, is what brings about salvation and Life. Not only that… but repentance is something God G-I-V-E-S… not an act of our own.
  
  Does this stand up to the rest of Scripture?
  
  
  

  Romans 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
  

  
  
  

  Proverbs 28:13 He who covers his sin shall not prosper, but whoever confesses and forsakes it shall obtain mercy.
  

  
  
  

  1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
  

  
  There are many other verses one could turn to… many… but I think these three read it plainly enough… Repentance is a gift from God that leads us from death to life. It has a purifying affect upon the heart.
  
  A key note here — if you look to the incredible passage of Isaiah 1:18 — Come, let us reason together, though your sins be red as scarlet I shall wash them white as snow — That incredible offer of salvation….
  
  …….is preceded by FIVE full verses calling men to repent!!!!
  
  two verses offering salvation…. preceded directly by 5 verses calling men to repent in order to obtain that salvation. Tell me that repentance isn’t important.
  
  So Let’s go back to your original question — When are we saved and our sins forgiven?
  
  By the preponderance (That word means the overwhelming evidence in support of….) of verses in Scripture it’s clear that Salvation comes when we repent, turn to God and trust in him…. not by baptism, which merely places us in union to Christ’s death and resurrection by proxy.
  
  
  

  Trust in the Lord with all of your heart
  Lean not on your own understanding
  Acknowledge him in all that you do
  And — HE — will make your paths straight. (Proverbs 3:5-6)
  

  
  From one end of scripture to the other the message goes forth.
  
  
  

  The just shall live by faith.
  

  
  And we obtain faith not by baptism…. but by repentance.
  
  
  

  Repent and believe. (Thus says Jesus, Matthew 4:17, 9:13; Mark 1:15, 2:17; Luke 5:32, 13:3, 5, and most importantly Luke 24:47 which is Luke’s rendering of the great commission and spells it out in perfect detail.)
  

  
  You really need to stop looking to those who are dead and blind for your answers…. for honestly, those DEAD in their sins are BLIND to the truth of God and have nothing to offer you which can lead you along the path of righteousness.
  
  Here’s how I once graphed out Ephesians 4:17-19 — just so the effect of that verse becomes clear….
  
  
  

  So I tell you this and insist upon it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the FUTILITY of their thinking.
  
  Thus, before Christ, we are in this condition —
  
  Our Thinking is futile
  —Our Understanding is darkened
  —–we are separated from the life of God
  ——–we are ignorant
  ————we have hardened our hearts
  —————-we have lost ALL sensitivity to sinful things
  ——————-we have given ourselves over to sensuality
  ———————–we indulge in every manner of impurity (RE: all things UN-holy)
  —————————-and lastly, we continually lust for more.
  

  
  And from this sort of person you want to glean “Spiritual insight”? Sorry…. Jesus, himself, called them “Blind leaders of the blind.” They know nothing.
  
  Christianity isn’t a matter of looking for what’s the best in all religions and incorporating it back into our faith — Christianity REJECTS the world’s wisdom and religions as folly, foolishness and the doctrines of demons. (1 Corinthians 1 & 2; James 3:15-16; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; Colossians 2:16-23)
  
  Christianity rests wholly, solely, purely & plainly upon Christ, his words and His works… and nothing else. The book of Hebrews makes that absolutely clear.

  Wayne - Oh, and @Gary — regarding “not being able to find verses regarding threefold name baptism….”    I answered you already. I told you that Jesus command in Matthew was stated plainly enough for me to follow. Be baptized in the name of the Father, in the Name of the Son & In the name of the Holy Spirit.
  
  I see NO —- N. O. —- disparity regarding manner of baptism here. In Jesus name, in the 3 fold blessing…. no disparity and no bother. Seems to me both are covered in Scripture so there’s no point to arguing the matter.
  
  But let me point something out to you… if it was merely to be “in the name of Jesus”… and nothing else… then why didn’t Jesus make it that simple? Why specifically spell it out in very detailed terms? Why go through all the bother?
  
  Why did He not simply say:
  
  Baptizing them in MY name.
  
  Period, end of conversation.
  
  He spelled it out because it was important. He spelled it out because this isn’t three titles for one (singular) person, but THREE PERSONS IN UTTER UNITY. Three personages to one God.  A Trinity.
  
  Again bringing us back to the question and matter of the trinity which YOU…. Y-O-U… keep avoiding and not addressing.

  
  

  If more comes of this conversation I’ll consider posting it up as an addendum.  But I honestly think that the matter is spelled out clearly in the questions and responses given.  If nothing else, it is something to chew on.
  

  
  

  • 1:57 am
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