September 6, 2011
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Judgment comes
Leonard Ravenhill once asked “Where are the Elijahs of God”? That was nearly 40 years ago, but it led a generation to ask the same thing… who will trust God so completely and thoroughly as to stand up against the prophets of Ba’al of our age. Keith Green took that message to heart and his incendiary preaching led thousands of Christians into a deeper relationship with Christ.
Today I am looking across modern Christianity and I am led to wonder “Where are the Jeremiah’s of God?” Where are the preachers stating plainly “prepare yourselves, for judgment comes”? Where are those like John the Baptist who would stand toe to toe with a king and tell him face to face “You’re sinning!”? Where are the preachers of righteousness of our day?
Lately my facebook commentaries have been bold and blunt. I’m growing tired of the complacency I see around me that tolerates sin and allows blasphemous and foul things to be preached from the pulpit as though God did not see. I hear preachers saying that black is white, wrong is right and bad is good…. and noone willing to speak up for fear of being shamed. It is better to be shamed before men, say I, than to be shamed before God. It is better to speak the truth, though unpopular, than to say nothing and pretend that nothing is wrong.
I have also seen the trend in Christian circles that disclaims accountability to anything other than the little voice in their ear that pretends to be Christ. I recently actually had someone say to me “I don’t listen to you, I only follow Jesus” — this after I pointed out several scriptures regarding matters in their lives that needed addressing. While it’s true, I am no authority, I would hope that as a self-proclaimed “believer” they would at least have the decency to acknowledge the Scriptures place in their sanctification. If we’ve come to a place where we live as we desire and claim that Jesus “condones our sinful lifestyle” —- Judgment comes.
I’m not through with this topic yet — but for tonight I have said what I needed to say and asked what I needed to ask….
Where are the Jeremiah’s of God proclaiming to one and all “prepare your hearts — Judgment comes”?
Comments (48)
In China. And North Korea, and Muslim countries. Not here. Here they ran Jesus out of the churches long ago. That is why Chinese Christians are praying that American Christians have real persecution. You are right, judgement is coming.
Hallelujah, Amen!
JulieMillerFan; I agree that it looks pretty bleak when you look at the Christian landscape but we can take a lesson from the past out of the Old Testament and from the mouth of Elijah and God. We can’t say that the pulpits have failed us all. We have a responsibility before God to discipline those pulpits that fail us. But are we doing that as believers in Christ? Haven’t we been the failures as well? We allow worldly doctrine to come in just as the wolves dress like sheep and come boldly into the flock, right?
Romans 11:2-4
2 God did not
reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture
says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”]”=”">[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”]”=”">[b]
Those puilpits that remain faithful to the Lord are worthy of our respect, admiration, and support, rather than our complacency. We should be on our knees on their behalf, supporting them in everything. They are men as we are men and women, with failures, shortcomings, and weakness. Some of them are even willing to go to the cross on OUR behalf as Christ did. Can we do less for them? Dan
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Recommending @danandbevsfarm ’s comment. If we make a blanket statement about the apostasy or capitulation of the pulpits of today, we make them all to be the same. This is an injustice to the pastors and teachers who are preaching the truth….To the unbeliever or the young or weak believer, only confusion can result. I do understand your point and wouldn’t want what you are saying to be lumped in with the naysayers who just plain want to discredit Christ and Christians.
@danandbevsfarm - You are correct — but the most popular selling author in American Christianity of recent is Joel Osteen….. what does that have to say about the general consensus of Christians out there? Liberal Christianity is leading the attack on Biblical Christianity — all in the name of “Christ”… that wonderful Jesus Seminar lets me know that only about 2% of my New Testament Gospels really was spoken by Jesus after all.
Yes, there are wonderful preachers out there who deserve our prayers and our respect. My question is — who speaks up when the wolves invade the flock? Who says “Judgment comes” to the ones who falsely say things in Jesus name and people listen? Where are the Jeremiah’s of our day? As you said — we have a responsibility to speak up. This post is my voice saying just that.
I agree with you, don’t get me wrong, I just think the problem is far graver than we imagine…. as it usually tends to be.
@JulieMillerFan - I must admit my ignorance of Joel Osteen and the Jesus Seminar. I had to go to wiki to find out what you were addressing. And yes, I believe you are correct that we are loosing ground to the “gimme” generation just as we lost some to the “Prayer of Jabez”bunch a while back. As you know, satan knows his time is short and he is definitely carving out a people for himself as well. I encourage as many folks as I can to get back to the bible and check out everything against God’s word but I can’t force it on them. I can encourage the weak hearted,strengthen those seeking to know, stand against those that don’t care to know, but ultimately, each of us MUST stand before God and bow the knee. Each of us that make our best effort to defend the testimony of God through Jesus Christ must totally depend on the Holy Spirit to complete His work in the heart. And I will admit, it IS getting more difficult to “sense” the real bellievers from the frauds. I believe the Church has sown the wind in the past and we are reaping the worldwind now at the end. I hate to think that the sins of the fathers are visited on the sons to the third and fourth generation. I was not raised in any religion in my youth, but sought “a god”. In the search, I found how deceived (in looking back) many people were, following cults, mystics, Catholicism, and other aberations of God’s Word, atheism, liberalism, and all the other “isms”. In the past, we had the opportunity, our greatgrandparents, grandparents, parents, to stem the slide of this nation, the world, and they missed the chance. So now we reap the harvest of weeds sown.
The consolation that we have is in knowing that God knows our hearts (those that have put out the effort) and placed ourselves (as Ezekiel, the watchman) in harms way and on our knees on behalf of others in hopes that the harvest will be restored should the Lord tarry. But even at this, we CAN”T be discouraged. I don’t remember which missionary it was, but one of them was asked, “after so many years of telling of Jesus Christ, why was there only a handful that came to the Lord?” He replied, “The Lord was teaching me the VALUE of an individual soul!” If only one more comes to know Jesus Christ as a result of my preaching, teaching, sympathizing, consoling, praying, crying for them, I will have one more brother or sister to greet at the feet of the Lord and long to hear, “Well done thou good and faithful servant!!” At the close of the movie “Shindler’s List”, Shindler offers his ring, his money, whatever he has left to spare the life of just one more Jew, just one more! I want to go out screaming, “just one more for Jesus Christ, just one more!” Dan
Each disciple receives spiritual enlightenment at baptism. And God’s revelation to man culminated with Jesus. So there is no longer any need for prophets.
What there is though, is the need to be properly educated.
I don’t believe most modern Christians know that during the Middle Ages, the Church required 4 years of study in math and physics as a prerequisite for studying theology.
This had two earth shattering effects:
1. The best minds in Europe were systematically trained to understand the building blocks of reality.
2. And that led to the rise of the greatest civilization in human history, Western Civilization.
Civilizations fall for two major reasons:
1. People become ignorant and thus unable to understand the mechanics of civilization.
2. People lose virtue and become decadent.
Today’s most vocal Christians thinks themselves experts in theology without ever having engaged in formal university training in math and physics or traditional philosophy.
Nevertheless, the Way is open to all Christians. The opportunities for charity, good works, learning abound.
Ordinary Christians out in the world doing good works as an expression of their faith is how civilization is preserved.
There is no need for any Elijah’s since Christ left his presence in the world after he died.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - One of the brightest times in world history was at a point when the world was replete in darkness in the early 1500′s when Martin Luther essentially took his life in his hands and “gave faith and hope” to the world through his “justification by faith alone” thesis. As a result, the unlearned could individually come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ, without knowing Latin, without knowing the earth was round, without knowing or caring that earth was not the center of the universe, and yet have a relationship with the creator of all things. Not since the first century had a revival of this scope occured, but it occured as individuals broke away from the carnal thinking that salvation was determined by the Roman Catholic Church only.
I was reading yesterday a paper by an Englishman stating how far England had fallen and wondered what is the result of a whole nation that falls away from the knowledge of the Lord , that thumbs their nose at the very thought of salvation by grace and grace alone. Do we have a record of any nation that has done that? The Roman empire imploded but they had not investigated grace alone, but imploded on themselves without ever knowing , as a nation, justification. Can ANY nation of people be preserved as “A Christian nation” and enter eternity intact because of their national faith? Israel is the only nation that comes to mind and only after its weeds, thorns, and thistles have been removed, allowing the wheat to thrive. What about America. I have said it erroneously in the past that “we were a Christian nation” that has fallen or is in the throws of death but were we? We, at the start, were rebelling against the established Church of England and the grip that was choking the life from them. So we vowed not to establish a national “religion”. Dave Hunt has gone back and shown that Christianity was alive and well within community-mindedness and the individual but he also hints at the dominionist phylosophy when he says that the test for the politician was “has he professed Jesus Christ as Lord”; a fare and just statement of faith, but were we seeking a theocracy, where sinful men under the leading of the Holy Spirit rule the nation? As Sodom could not find even eight righteous folks, as Ninevah was spared at Jonah’s preaching but later Assyria destroyed, are we as American’s going to be spared, though there are still individuals justified and sanctified by Jesus Christ? In Ezekiel, is there ANY indication that America helps defend Israel, the apple of God’s eye, against the onslaught of nations seeking the valuables from the speck of land retained by the Jews? Is there a book opened at the judgement of the nations called “The Grace of Nations”? If America is not found in the book, what happens?
My goal is not to discourage but rather to establish a footing to build from. Just as the unrighteous have made great gains in this nation, isn’t it possible that He that is in us is GREATER than he that is in the world and we can look forward to a national revival as in our past and as in the Far East’s present where missionaries come to US with stories of the movement of God in their nation’s individuals. Faith involves a vision of what we can become but we must first see what we are, then as Paul says, “Forgetting what is behind, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which I was called heavenward by Jesus Christ”.
Is it just possible that when a nation turns from, or has never accepted, God’s immutable grace, that the nation is judged by the law, and there is no one, no nation, that can withstand that scrutiny? Just some thoughts and questions to consider. Dan
@danandbevsfarm - Oh my gosh, am I verbose, or what!!!! I thought I just put down a few thoughts, I didn’t realize I wrote a book.
@danandbevsfarm - I believe your comment is Protestant propaganda. I say that with all due respect because what you are saying is simply not true.
Martin Luther was a Catholic priest after all. And he suffered from severe mental illness. He was prideful, spiteful and completely without any authority other than that which he granted himself. He is the archetype of the self-righteous, sanctimonious blow hard that corrupts far too many modern-day churches.
He is in fact, the disease that the OP is railing against.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - I respect your view, but I must adamently disagree with your premise. Just as you view the Protestant movement with disdain, The “Holy” Roman Catholic Church has quite its own history of illness. You are familiar with indulgences, pergatory, and the like, that are doctrines of church tradition rather than accepted canon. I dutifully admit that church catholic brought together the canon of scripture, but that is not the Roman Catholic Church. That would be like the horse being related to the elephant, “They both have four legs don’t they?” one might say and “they both have a skeleton” but the beauty of the one far exceeds the girth and bloat of the other. You are claiming the profit of diligent research from the past church catholic as your own but the downfall of Romanism was begun in the Council of Nicea and later as your faith became the vicor of Christ. Are you able to show a scripture in context where the pontification of the church and the vicor of Christ reside, or where the “traditions” of the church are approved by anyone other than the hierachy of the Roman Catholic Church? Where is the universality in the Roman Catholic Church that one must genuflect before the Pope as though he was a king? I am told that I can come BOLDLY to the throne of grace and cry “papa” as a son to his father not as a slave to his master. God’s Holy Spirit testifies with my spirit that I am TRULY a son of the Most High God and there is NOTHING that will change that relationship; nothing in heaven and nothing in hell. No pergatory, no prayers for the dead, no indulgences, NOTHING! I have staked my very life on that fact for I know in whom I believe and am persuaded that He is a rewarder of faith.
I guess it becomes far easier in the true Roman tradition to kill the messenger than address the message, so in defense of Martin Luther I would like to post his words in regard to his old faith and his new faith;
I am more afraid of my own heart than of the pope and all his cardinals. I have within me the great pope, Self.
Faith is a living, daring confidence in God’s grace, so sure and certain that a man could stake his life on it a thousand times.
Faith is permitting ourselves to be seized by the things we do not see.
I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God’s hands, that I still possess.
Let the wife make the husband glad to come home, and let him make her sorry to see him leave.
Peace if possible, truth at all costs.
Martin Luther
Does any of this sound as though a demented mind produced and fabricated his heartfelt comments? I am not a Lutheran but I am a Protestant and stand beside my brother, Martin Luther, knowing that it is GRACE AND GRACE ALONE THAT SAVES A WRETCH LIKE ME!!
@danandbevsfarm - I don’t have disdain. I have great value for the truth and the facts.
Corruption is something that affects all of mankind. To hold the Catholic Church to a standard that few Protestant churches can even match is dishonest. Day after day I read posts and comments by people who were turned off by the corruption in their churches.
The real issue between Catholics and Protestants is doctrine. And that is what Catholics discuss.
Protestants on the other hand, almost always argue corruption as if they are immune from it.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
@danandbevsfarm - Catholics believe that salvation is act of grace also. But Jesus clearly states that it is not enough and so do the Apostles.
A man asked Jesus what was necessary for eternal life and Jesus answered, “Follow the commandments.” Also, “He that eats my body and drinks my blood receives eternal life” When was the last time you had Holy Communion?
Saint James said that, “Faith without works is dead.”
Yes, we are saved by grace. But clearly we have our own part to play. After we are saved, we can’t just sit around and act like nothing happened. We have to change our ways otherwise we reject our own salvation.
The point is, Luther was dead wrong.
@danandbevsfarm - I would recommend the two posts I linked Loborn to. They will give you something more to consider. Also check into the writings of Charles Spurgeon…. he’s got some great points regarding the Roman Catholic system that will likewise give you food for thought.
Sola Scriptura (meaning, none of those extraneous books that even the Jews rejected… Bel & the dragon? Maccabees? Puh-lease….)
Sola Gratis (Grace is sufficient to save cause ours is an all-sufficient savior. He paid the price ONCE, FOR ALL… and then sat down because the work was finished.)
Sola Christos (Christ saves, not the church, not the pope, and not works. In Christ alone I place my trust… all else is shaky ground.)
amen
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - Loborn — you might want to consider who you’re extending the hand of friendship to (as you have invited me to be Xanga friends with you)….. you and I have had many arguments in the past and you were even the root behind one of my posts (Laying My Cards on the Table: What’s wrong with the Catholic church). You should probably note that I consider the Roman Catholic church (I always refuse to capitalize that last word… as the RCc is no part of Christ’s Church) the biggest mission field on the planet and don’t hesitate to point out it’s horrid ANTI-Biblical ANTI-theology myself whenever the need arises. (Roman Catholicism and the Emergent Church) Are you sure you still want to be friends?
LoBorn, Dan has it right. Grace is what saves, not works… and that system of yours which propagates to hold men to a different standard is not of God. The longer you defend it, the longer you stand as an enemy of God… and I do not say that lightly. God, Himself, calls our works “dirty, filthy, used tampons” (the actual Hebrew for Isaiah 64:6… most English translations lessen the impact by calling them “rags”) and Paul repeatedly says that works don’t save. James pointed out that works don’t SAVE us… they merely point out the genuineness of our salvation. Can the love of God be found in someone who holds back food from someone in need? No… the love of God probably wasn’t there to begin with and so your use of James to back your shaky system only makes James 4:4 all the more potent. You are an enemy of God.
The Roman Catholic church has for long centuries kept men in darkness, refusing to allow them even the merest whisper of hope. They pretend to give men hope by saying there’s hope…. after death… but for now, right now, you have no assurance of Salvation. Funny, I thought that was what Romans 8:15-16 was all about!!! I thought 1 John 1:9 was actually a promise from God… silly me, guess I’ll just have to wear my Brown Scapular and pray that Mary has mercy on me on the day of my death to redeem me from Purgatory. The dark ages were aptly named BECAUSE OF the Roman Catholic church… so please, tell me again how the RCc is the sole bastion of Truth… cause seems to me if it was, it sure has kept it under wraps for many centuries.
But let’s back up to your comments for a moment. More specifically the part where “Roman Catholics believe that salvation is an act of Grace”. Really… so what of the 7 sacraments which the Roman system states must be adhered to in order for salvation to be extended? Where in Scripture does it state that marriage saves anyone? Where in Scripture does it tell us about extreme unction? Where in Scripture does it tell us that we need to be confirmed into the church in order to be saved? Where does it point to confession of our sins —- AS A MEANS OF SALVATION???? Where? I can point to “For by grace you have been saved, through Faith, and that not of yourselves lest any man should boast.” Where can you point to?
Grace is sufficient… and yet your blasphemous system holds men bound by saying that Christ’s death was IN-sufficient. That we need to perpetuate the sacrifice of the Mass if we are to be saved. Really. Do this IN REMEMBRANCE of me did not wipe away the Levitical system of sheep sacrifice just so you could over-impose something else. It meant specifically that we are to honor the sacrifice Christ paid on our behalf to ONCE, FOR ALL take away our sins and grant us salvation. It is a celebration — not a blasphemous transubstantiation for repeated sacrifice. Your system would wipe away the whole book of Hebrews and Jesus words on the Cross “It is Finished” just to keep men enslaved to a false premise that they need something more. Jesus death wasn’t enough… we must constantly kill him again. Check your Vatican Counsels and see if I am making this up. Actually, the Counsel of Trent tells me I’m “anathema” for merely even suggesting that there is NO power in the Catholic mass to save anyone.
—-> Re: for those uninitiated out there — The Roman Catholics believe that the priest has the power to PHYSICALLY CONVERT the Bread and Wafer INTO the ACTUAL, PHYSICAL, SUBSTANTIAL Body of Jesus and thus the whole “MASS” is actually a renewed sacrifice of Christ again and again and again and again and again…. ad nauseum. It’s called “Transubstantiation” and it’s why Catcholics MUST — M-U-S-T — attend mass, cause if they don’t, they’ve missed out on Jesus atoning sacrifice. Ouch.
Loborn…. Your system is straight from the pit of hell, and serves to blind mens eyes to the truth that Jesus did come to save them — a ONE TIME sacrifice for ALL men who would come to Him in faith. Your system blinds men to the truth that Jesus alone is necessary for entrance into heaven, not Mary, not the pope and definitely not the Church. When the thief died on the Cross with Christ, he didn’t say to him — first you must join the church, attend mass, and yeah, by the way, go have a conversation with my mother… if she accepts you, I’ll accept you. No, Jesus told the man that this day he would share with Christ in Heaven because of his simple faith in Christ and Christ alone.
Loborn… you need to repent of these blasphemies you hold to, and stop so arrogantly holding forth the Roman Catcholic Farce as the sole means of men’s salvation…. cause it’s not true.
You are right, we tend to argue doctrine more than anything else…. but there’s a reason for that.
1 Timothy 4:16 — Watch your life AND YOUR DOCTRINE carefully, persevere in these things and you will save both yourselves and your hearers.
I’ll stand with Jude who reminded us to “Contend earnestly for the ONCE, FOR ALL, delievered to the saints faith”. And your system…. doesn’t have it.
Do you still want to be my friend? I’ve only touched the tip of the iceberg on what I could say about the RCc — I haven’t even gone on about the Pope, Mary, Indulgences (which are still around…. why would anyone pay for a Mass? Wasn’t Christs’ sacrifice and death for men “FREE”????) and so many other issues. Even this short note has been editted since I submitted it cause there is just so much crap (re: the real kind, not merely just saying the word for effect) being passed around by the RCc which has no bearing upon True Christianity.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - By the Way, Loborn…. you slam @danandbevsfarm - by asking him whens the last time he had communion…. let me ask you…. whens the last time you drank from the Communion cup? Oh, wait, that’s only for the priest now-a-days, isn’t it? And yet Christ gave both the bread and the wine…. and Paul comments on both, the bread and the wine…. so who’s missing out here? Seems to me that your church is holding something back from you. Wouldn’t want to miss out on the PHYSICAL blood of Jesus… now would you? Communion is more than just the wafer… so why are you being denied? Things that make you go, Hmmmmmmm.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - There is very little point in covering the same ground on the issue of grace, You see it as merited favor, I see is as unmerited favor, you earn your salvation through your church, I have the freedom to honor my God with my gifts for the works that He has ordained in advance. We talk two entirely different languages, you and I. I have no Hail Marys, I do no penence, I can not earn any favor before God, I already have it through His Son. You must earn your place through penence, through good deeds, through Hail Marys, through Baptism, and on and on. Works, all of it works for salvation. I have the peace with God through His Son, my works for salvation was done when I acknowledged Jesus Christ as my saviour. There is NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING MORE that can be done for my salvation. There are works, but NOT in regards to salvation. I take the bible literally because that is precisely the way the bible was given by God, for ALL men to be able to understand. My pastor, and most Godly pastors (Protestant) will say the same thing for salvation. God offers salvation freely to those that come to His Son. Man is no longer held accountable for His sin. However, not accepting the remedy for sin- Jesus Christ’s death on the cross- is a matter of not accepting the remedy that God has prepared for us so the punishment still remains on those who disavow the remedy. How one builds their life in Christ determines their place and purpose in heaven, not whether they will BE in heaven. Romans 8:1 set us free- those that have accepted God’s gift of salvation. Consider 1 Corintians 3:10-15;
Corinthians 3:10-15
New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
10 By the
grace God has given me (Paul), I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and
someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he
builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13
his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to
light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the
quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
This passage is literal, it is clear, concise, and easy to understand. When the foundation of Jesus Christ is built, our works, whether good or bad are added to salvation already gained and if it should survive as good works, one receives his reward. Consider building a house; once the foundation is laid, does it make ANY difference to the foundation whether one builds the house with straw or with structural lumber? Bad works added to the already earned salvation means no reward but one gets to heaven with flames licking at ones backside. Nothing about pergatory, nothing about Hail Marys, nothing about baptism, confession, observing ordinances, NADA!!! If someone claims to have salvation, but there life is indistinguishable from the world, they are decieved, they do not have salvation because the outgrowth of true salvation is turning from sin. We are still sinners, yes, but do not practice sin nor do we encourage others to sin. There is a major difference but it IS NOT the works that make that difference. If there is no change in one’s life after accepting Jesus Christ as Lord, then one has NOT accepted Jesus Christ as Lord. Dan
@JulieMillerFan - It’s late right now but I will check out what you posted for Lobo. Did you see the video of the Diet of Worms on my post? I thought it was a very good portrayal of how the event probably unfolded. Dan
@danandbevsfarm - I stated categorically that Church doctrine sees salvation as an act of God’s grace. And I referred to scripture which categorically proved Martin Luther in error.
It is apparent that you are not reading my comments that you are carrying on a discussion with someone of your own imagining.
Atheists do that too. They redefine their own opponent and argue against their redefinition.
That way they always win.
Philosophically, Protestantism and atheism are identical. Even your rhetorical tactics are identical.
This speaks also to the problem written about by JulieMillerFan and why I was only a Protestant for 6 weeks. It’s a problem of intellectual honesty and consistency.
@JulieMillerFan - I haven’t slammed anyone. I’ve been engaging is civil discussion.
Like the atheist, you believe that a strong statement against your beliefs is insulting, or slamming or somehow evil.
When you are the author of your own truth, all other opinions become immoral.
That is one of the many tragic results wrought by Martin Luther. And why Christianity is such a mess.
@JulieMillerFan - Brevity is the soul of wit.
Notice that you and Dan multiply your words, whereas my comments are all very concise.
Jesus said that the gentiles (the uneducated) multiply their words.
And that goes back to my very first comment.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - Goes back to your first comment… and misses the entire point of everything said. Even Jesus managed to give the entire Sermon on the Mount when the need was necessary for truth’s sake… and likewise Paul wrote Romans to cover doctrine… and I dare say what I had to say isn’t 1/100th as deep or as wordy. There is a time for brevity, there is also a time for clarity… and in responding to the Catholic Cultic System, I’ll choose clarity over brevity any day.
But of interest, I note that you skipped over every single point I made… why is that? You call this a civil discussion, but the only thing I see you wanting to do is slam Luther and not address the issues. As for a point in fact, by the way, I do not see a strong statement made against my faith is an insult, I see it as a challenge for Apologetic work… something I’ve studied nearly 30+ years for and spent time in Seminary to do so better. I would address Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Muslims with the same approach: — Preach the Truth, do it in season and out of season. Not my truth… but God’s revealed truth… but more on that in a moment.
As for Atheists “redefining their opponents terms” and thus comparing us to that crew — Honey, I’m going straight back to the Vatican Counsels and the Council of Trent — how much plainer do you want it to be? Your own terminology, defined by your own church — and it still fails to adhere to a Biblical standard. Show me once where the Bible allows for Man to take upon himself the headship of the Church? We’re called shepherds, honey, not “Vicars” — and if the role was of that much importance pray tell me why there were many years wherein there was no pope? I don’t speak of the Ante-Nicene period, I speak plainly of the years wherein a suitable Pope was not found. Likewise, if this man was supposed to represent Christ — please explain to me the actions of those popes deemed “bad popes”??? Child molesters pretending to be the representation of Christ… that’s just plain sick. Google Bad Popes and read some of the attrocities that have taken place in your most holy office — it’s enough to make you want to vomit. And these men are hailed as “Saints”.
As for being the author of my own truth… strange, I’ve read Polycarp, Clement, Iraneus, Ignatius and the whole host of other Ante-Nicene preachers and apologeticists and I seem to find that I’ve invented nothing. I seem to be standing on some pretty solid ground. You, though, do not have the same firm footing it would seem. Which Church Father would you point to in order to discuss the Immaculate Conception? Which Church Father would you turn to for Purgatory? By this I mean 2nd & 3rd Century Christians, not those who follow after Constantine’s debacle. Even were you to go there… where would you find confessions of sins to a priest as a sacrament for salvation? Which one? Seems to me that James stated “Confess your sins ONE TO ANOTHER” with no bearing upon it having to be a Priest.
I could just as easily switch back to the Greek New Testament and take this all the way back to the original languages, if indeed you were open to taking an honest look at how your system fails. Would you?
Brevity is the poison of a fast food age, subsisting on a diet of cheeseburgers, Twitter and X-Box I dare say…. and Truth is best spelled out plainly, thoroughly, and clearly. Is my point to obtuse?
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - Oh, how’s this for brevity — the only time “Queen of Heaven” is mentioned in Scripture is a reference to Egyptian idolatry. Is this where Mary’s title comes from? Paganism? Seems to me that the Roman Catholic system has more in common with Babylonian Cultic teachings than it has in common with Christ. And there’s books printed to prove it…. care to read some with me?
@danandbevsfarm - Dan — My Xanga is set up to reference tag Scriptures. If you simply put them up correctly, my xanga page will allow anyone to scroll over and review the Bible passage in question. Just a note for future comments. Example would be 1st Corinthians 3:10-15 as you printed out above. You just needed to cite the passage properly and it’s there.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - Quite frankly, LoBo, I am not interested in your brevity wit but I do want to use your doctrine as an example to show how deceptive faulty interpretation comes about. Let’s use the passage of scripture that your whole house of cards is built upon.
I will use the bible I prefer but any bible will produce the same results. So let’s use logic here, ok?
Matthew 16:13-18
13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” 4They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.18 And I tell you that you are Peter,and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Jesus asked two questions of ALL his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” , “Who do you say I am?”. ok so far?
Jesus got a response that said, PEOPLE thought He was Elijah, Jeremiah, etc (all men from a horizontal view) so He asked further of ALL His disciples looking for an answer from ALL of those that lived 24/7 with Him, saw miracles,heard every word. Peter answered His question based on what He had learned of Christ and his answer was responded to with affirmation but let’s examine the affirmation. We know that Peter IS NOT A ROCK. He is flesh and bones just like the other disciples, right? However, petra is Greek for rock and Peter’s name was changed from Simon to Peter by Jesus Himself, right?
1. Peter=/=rock
2.Peter’s name=rock in Greek so we have a possibility here.
So the question is, was Jesus seeking an answer to His question or was He seeking Peter? The answer COULD have been given by ANY of His disciples but Peter is the one who spoke.
1.Jesus seeking=answer to questions
2.Jesus seeking=/=Peter
Now we know that Jesus was NOT seeking Peter but a response from the disciples, So let’s analyse the response, ok?
Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”, Jesus said, on this rock I will build my church. The answer was the focus of Jesus questions and Peter gave the correct answer because Jesus blessed him for his answer but it was the answer Jesus was seeking. So what ROCK is Jesus talking about? We have discovered that Peter’s name was rock so MAYBE that was the rock Jesus was looking for? Is there any evidence in scripture that Jesus used a man’s name to build anything on? We know that Jesus didn’t build on His name because when asked, He used God’s name, I AM (John 4:26, John 1:29, John 8:58) If Jesus would not use His name for the church to be built on, why would He use the name of someone that would deny Him three times, a man that would coware at the crucifixion of his professed Lord?
1. church=/=not built on name of Peter
2. church=profession that Jesus is Messiah
So, now we know that the rock was Peter’s profession and not on his name and not on Peter himself, so let’s verify that by asking what is the THIS ROCK that Jesus is going to build His church?
1. Peter=/=focus of Jesus question
2. church=/=built on the name of Peter
3. church=/=built on Jesus’ name
4. Peter=/=not the rock Jesus was talking about
You will notice that the focus was NEVER on Peter himself, but rather on the answer to the quesrtion, “Who am I? I submit to you that THIS profession of faith was what Jesus was seeking all along and THIS is what THIS ROCK is referring to. Jesus was trying to elicite a profession of faith from those who knew Him best and Peter happened to be the one that gave it. It could have been John, or Andrew, or any of the disciples.
Now, if it is a profession of faith in Jesus Christ, the Messiah and the Son of the Living God that the church is built on, doesn’t that appear to be what is required by Jesus Christ and God the Father? Examine these verses to see if that is correct.
1 John 5:9-13
9 We accept man’s testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10 Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
Romans 10:9-10
9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Acts 16:30-31
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Romans 10:13
13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Jonah 1:14-15 (Old Testament typology profession of faith)
14 Then they cried to the LORD, “O LORD, please do not let us die for taking this man’s life. Do not hold us accountable for killing an innocent man, for you, O LORD, have done as you pleased.” 15 Then they took Jonah and threw him overboard, and the raging sea grew calm.
Hebrews 10:1-3
Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All
1
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same
sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins,
So you see, Peter is NOT the foundation of the church, Jesus name is not the foundation of the church, it is Jesus HIMSELF that is the foundation, the rock of our salvation and it is THIS profession of faith that saves, not the Catholic church, not baptism, not mother Mary, not penence for sin, not indulgences, not education, not sacrements, not good works, not faith in Peter, not faith in the pope or cardinals, not the cross (because Jesus is no longer on the cross), and all the other junk put in place of profession of faith. ALL OF THIS IS AS FILTHY TAMPONS, AS FILTHY RAGS, AS TOTALLY USELESS TO SAVE.!!
@danandbevsfarm - Quite frankly, LoBo, I am not interested in your brevity
Brevity is not mine to have. And your lack of interest in the most basic principle of communication means that you are not interested in communication. It means that you are interested in ponitication.
And that is exactly the problem with your church.
If you aren’t interested communication why should others care about what you say?
@JulieMillerFan - I recommend that you read your Bible. Mary is indeed the Queen of Heaven.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - Cite the verse…. cause the only and I repeat — O-N-L-Y — time “Queen of Heaven” is mentioned, it’s in the old testament and it’s an Idol being referred to. There is not one reference ANYWHERE that God shared His personal Glory with Mary to the extent that we are to worship her. Jesus, yes, and he fully accepted worship many times. Mary…. not once. It’s just one more example of how your cultic system has turned worship AWAY FROM Christ where it belongs. “Let all men worship Him” was not stated “Let all men worship HER”. The pronouns in the greek are very definitive here.
@JulieMillerFan - Look in the book of Revelations.
@danandbevsfarm - Dan — Here’s a further thought for you from the Greek. The Matthew 16:13-18 passage you reference uses two DIFFERENT greek words for “Rock” Peter is called “petros” Or little stone. But then Christ stated “Upon this Petra” — Bedrock, foundation, granite. In otherwords, he can’t be referring to Peter, he already identified Peter as “Petros”… if he would have referred to Peter, he would have reused the word “Petros”. The Greek is very distinct in this passage.
Peter, you are a little stone, but upon this bedrock (what you have said) I will build my church.
Salvation has always been about faith & trust.
Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your Heart…..
based upon personal repentence
Proverbs 28:13 He who covers His sin shall not prosper, but whoever confesses and forsakes it shall obtain mercy.
Peter’s statement of faith is the bedrock that all men come to Christ by — confession of Christ as Lord.
Romans 10:9 If you confess with your mouth that “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you WILL be saved.
The beauty of salvation — a child can trust and doesn’t need to be indoctrinated into some church system to be Saved.
Amen!
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - (A) the book is “Revelation” not “Revelation(S)” — common mistake.
(B) I love the book of Revelation. I actually argued with a liberal Professor in Seminary to the point wherein he had to agree I was right. I posted many of my seminary papers as posts here on Xanga. That said let me be specific. When John wants to be figurative in the book of Revelation he plainly says so. The passage you refer to is a beautiful case in point. What are the first 3 words of the chapter?
A great SIGN….
A sign is never the item itself. You don’t go to California, get to the State Entrance SIGN and say “We’ve arrived, now lets go home”. A Sign — intentionally — points to something else. John is specifically telling us that this passage is a figurative approach to telling what he wants us to understand.
Now, that said… Did Mary appear suddenly with the Sun as her dress, the moon as her robe and with a 12 starred tiara? No… John already told us that this whole passage is a figurative one. Let me take this further — This nowhere says this woman is a Queen. Nowhere states that she is of or from Heaven.
Then ANOTHER SIGN appeared —
Again, we’re to understand that what John says points to something else. A sign ALWAYS points to something else… that is the nature of a sign.
We understand the dragon to be Satan, that much is clear. The woman surely could be Mary, and I am willing to accept that — except that the rest of the passage refers to many things that are not said of Mary.
Now let me drop the bombshell which will blow your system out of the water.
Revelation 12:17 states that the dragon, enraged that God was protecting the woman-figure — went off to fight with the rest of her children.
In all of Scripture, where are we ONCE referred to as the “Children of Mary”????
I can find a reference that we are the new Israel. That we’ve been grafted into Israels line and thus we are the true “Spiritual Children of Israel” —- but I can’t find one single reference anywhere to us being Children of Mary because of our faith. This passage might therefore actually point to the woman as Israel, who then God has been protecting —- BECAUSE — God is not finished with Israel as a nation yet, and the very book of Revelation shows us that time and again.
Sooo…. There is no “Queen of Heaven” — and I state this emphatically. I’ve read my Bible, even down to looking through the greek…. and this fictitional person your system refers to is merely one more attempt to steal Glory away from Christ where it belongs.
Try again. I honestly love helping others to KNOW their bible (and not merely assume that their church gave them the right propaganda).
@JulieMillerFan - You don’t your Bible. And you don’t want to know. What is most important to you is your doctrine which was cooked up for you by a mentally ill Catholic priest.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - You have a point with this comment:
And that is exactly the problem with your church.
If you aren’t interested communication why should others care about what you say?
But I am interested in communication, and in helping you see the truth through the viel of lies, hence why I take the time to respond.
I do need to apologize, and I have thought about this all night last night (it’s day time here, I’m a missionary in Asia). My first response to you was solidly sarcastic based on our previous correspondence. I therefore allowed myself to fall into a very demeaning tone and said things in fashions which probably would have been better put otherwise. I apologize for being demeaning towards you, I was wrong.
That stated, I do know far more about the Roman Catholic church than you seem to be used to. It seems that you are used to dealing with folks who want to attack – attack – attack and have scant real information to draw from or point back to. If you wish to honestly review the sordid history of your church system, and how it abandoned the truth long ago in order to put forth it’s own system on top of what already existed…. I can help you. And I would love to. But communication is a 2 way street, and honest evaluation takes the willingness to admit your wrong.
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me….
I know, unquestionably, that I have encountered the truth. I was once a very foul person, and I paid for that with 2 years of my life spent behind bars for a crime I did commit. Christ changed all of that. Only Christ has that power. That was 19 years ago, and He’s proven himself to me time and again just how faithful and trustwrothy He can be when you trust him…. and not some bent and twisted system.
The Truth shall set you free.
I’ve pointed this out many times — whenever you see the word “WILL” or “SHALL” in scripture, mark it…. you can bank on it as a promise from God. The Truth WILL — unquestionably — set you free. Are you free? Have you been set free? Does your life show evidence of just that fact? My life was such a dramatic turn around that someone who knew me before and after stated “If Jesus can turn dragons into puppies, then there’s hope for the world yet.”
What is your life telling you? It’s an honest question that I hope sticks in your mind and echoes until the answer is found — solely in Christ and Christ alone.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - it is so wonderful that you are a Psychiatrist and have personally evaluated Luther’s mental state… how old did you say you were agian? You call him Mentally unstable… were you there to know? Or are you simply relying upon the biased opinions of those who hated the Truth he preached and therefore had reason to label him such?
Seems to me I’m not one who’s merely accepting things that others have forced into you… as you indirectly label me.
I took the time — 9 years time — to look back into things BEFORE I became a Christian. I took the time — 9 years time — to review the Church history and Church Fathers and to find out what was true and false. I took the time. Have you? Or are you merely accepting blindly what your (FALSE) church system states? Have you even read Luther — I’m not talking a passage here and there, I’m talking full works. have you studied his life? I have. I took the time. Have you? Or is this just another instance of blind prejudice?
@JulieMillerFan - The life and times of Martin Luther are well documented.
@danandbevsfarm - Since you are referring to me in the third person, you are clearly pontificating and have no interest in whether anyone is actually paying attention.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - LoBo said; But Jesus clearly states that it is not enough and so do the Apostles.
Where is your evidence for “clearly Jesus”. What conversation can be had when you make a statement only. I disagree. Is that the conversation you are looking for. Give me some evidence that I can look up, or is it only a statement by LoBo. The evidence you submitted was not in context and I WILL NOT respond to out of context proof. My communion was last Sunday, but I didn’t eat Jesus body and I didn’t drink Jesus blood for one very important reason; THAT IS NOT WHAT HE SAID TO DO. Your transsubstantiation is so bogus I can’t believe you don’t see the contradiction. Jesus Christ was OFFERED ONCE FOR SIN, ONCE FOR SIN, ONCE FOR SIN!! It does not get ANY clearer than that. Every time you have your ‘Unholy communion”, you are offering His body for sacrifice, again, and again, and again, and again, CAPISH? Is that your “holy” intention, to continually offer Christ’s body and blood?(Hebrews 5:8-10, Hebrews 10:10, 1 Peter 3:18, Hebrews 9:26, Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 10:1-3, Romans 6:10, Hebrews 7:27) ONCE FOR ALL, ONCE FOR ALL, ONCE FOR ALL, ONCE FOR ALL, ONCE FOR ALL, ONCE FOR ALL, ONCE FOR ALL, ONCE FOR ALL!!! How many times does it have to be told, LoBo? What Lobo’ism can you present back in response? As to the Queen of heaven, you must have joined the church of Astoreth, right? They have a Queen of Heaven or how about the Isis Queen of Heaven church from Egypt. And you know what, I’m pretty sure that idols were condemned by Jesus Christ and the Apostles and especially of the Queen of Heaven and even Paul (Romans 1:21-23), Apostle John, addressed idols and images made to look like man that one might bow down to (maybe like genuflect to?)(1 John 5:21)(Psalm 115:3-5, 2 Kings 17:11-12). So you see, LoBo, when you can offer proof for your position rather than rheteric, then we can carry a conversation, but if reteric is all you have, there is just nothing more that can be said. Dan
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - If LoBo is the third person, why don’t you use a name in place of your logo. You are killing the messenger again LoBo because you do not like the message. That was a very typical Roman method of avoiding the truth. And as far as the Martin Luther story, isn’t that recorded in your literature, even in wiki. Again, Roman tricks, kill the messenger if you don’t like the message. Here’s a repost of the Diet of Worms drama of the excommunication of Martin Luther.
Diet of Worms
Martin Luther video at Diet of Worms
@danandbevsfarm - You may pontificate to your hearts content, but you don’t have authority over people’s names.
Words have meaning and so does the manner in which they are used.
The way you use words indicates that human dignity is meaningless to you. For you, pontificating is all important.
Make human dignity, instead of pontificating, your prime goal and you will begin to address the problems in your church.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - Are you insinuating that I am acting just as your pontiffs act when I pontificate? Is that what you are accusing me of, being exactly like your pontiffs? That is demeaning to your own pontiffs if you accuse me of acting as your pontiffs do. Please note the definition.
Did you just learn a new word? When you, LoBo, are told repeatedly the same thing again and again with no change in your response, who do you think has the problem? We ask for proof and all you seem to do is equivocate (another new word for you). All we ask is proof, not rheteric. Is that to difficult for you?
pontificate
@danandbevsfarm - I haven’t insinuated anything. And I recommend that you read the writings of the Catholic popes. The popes would be great role models for you. They are educated, understand Christianity and above all they know how to communicate.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - So would you recommend to me the pope that liked to have little boys walk around under his pontifical robes doing the nasty for him? Or maybe the pope that sold the papacy to someone else for money. Or how about that wonderful pope that so hated a former pope that he had the bones of that pope dug up and put on trial. The list of Bad Popes is pretty substantial.
Sounds like you’ve given me some sound advice… right up there with praying to Mary in my book.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - Have any of your popes ever thought about praying this. Probably not because of their history.
1 Kings 3:9New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
9 So give your
servant a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish
between right and wrong. For who is able to govern this great people of
yours?”
This was the prayer of a servant’s heart seeking wisdom. I’ll bet that was a very rare commodity in the line of popedom. Is there any particular pope that you can point to that had this education, wisdom, and understanding of christianity? I would certainly like to read about him, LoBo. But you have left me with the search. I would prefer that you point, not me search. That puts you in a position of providing information as proof, or are we just going to pontificate and equivocate again?
@JulieMillerFan - I’m getting a hunch that we are about done here, aren’t we!! I think we have just about exhausted LoBo’s repertoire of equivocation. She might just have to get away from the abridged dictionary and read the pope’s diaries for some new words. I’ll bet you can get some highfalutin words out of that, right?
@danandbevsfarm - The uneducated mind can’t stay focused. My comments, unlike yours actually address the topic of this post. Your response to my comments is to change the subject.
It is of no relevance whatsoever what popes pray. Read this post then ask yourself if your comments make any sense at all.
@JulieMillerFan - Which pope are you referring to?
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - Sorry for the delay in commenting, yesterday was a holiday over here in Taiwan and I spent literally 14 hours with my home church here.
The list of bad popes is actually quite well documented, but here’s a list I simply pulled off of Wikipedia…
Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.[1]
Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.
Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who “sold” the Papacy
Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante‘s Divine Comedy
Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.[2]
Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.[3]
Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors’ reserves on a single ceremony[4]
Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.
So again I ask —- which Pope should I be listening to, cause there are some seriously evil men who’ve occupied the office over the centuries. Even one of the more recent ones, when shot, cried out to Mary to save him — funny, I thought it was Christ who was our savior. Seems to me that his priorities as the “Vicar of Christ” is radically skewered. (oh, and I loved that part about having been caught with another man’s wife in bed — guess celibacy isn’t for everyone. When in Rome… so they say.)
@danandbevsfarm - We wrestle not with flesh and blood. Lobo is merely a misguided pawn in the overall war for which Satan wages for the souls of men. Ours is not to be pridefully arrogant ourselves — doing so makes us equal sinners and worse witnesses. Ours is to follow the example of Christ who prayed for his persecutors and held genuine compassion for those he tried to reach with the truth. Lobo deserves at least the same respect.
@JulieMillerFan - Do you realize that you’ve had to go back centuries? And do you also realize that you listed only 9 or popes out of over 260?!
We Catholics study about all of that.
Because the Catholic Church wrote the book on clerical corruption it is absolutely silly to think that the same corruption has not been afflicting Protestant churches since they’ve been in existence.
Part of your pious, self righteous sanctimony is the bigoted thinking that only Catholic clergy is capable of corruption.
Your list is not an indictment of the Church but a proclamation of its sanctity!